back up power question

[reefsurfer]

Hello all,
I was just wondering what the folks around here are doing when the power goes out? Are there cheaper ways than a generator to keep things going? Thanks.

[One Salty Dog]

for my tank with an overflow setup I get out the buckets and put the sumps volume through the system every 1/2 hour. It's a bummer but it works in a pinch :-)
Rob

[Flame*Angel]

These can be a lifesaver, or should I say tanksaver:
http://www.mops.ca/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/cshop/APPP-SAB11.html?L+scstore+vkhn7766ff05e105+1093917249

[apoon]

Yes this air battery pump saved all my fish in last August blackout. But be aware that it is not silent as advertised. It is VERY noisy.

After that time, I bought a 1000VA UPS and plugged just one power head from each of my 3 tanks to that UPS. I calculated that it could probably last for a day.

[cres]

Personally, I have a 30 gal setup with an Eclipse 3 lid.
I have only the pump on the lid hooked up to a 350 VA UPS (available for $40 at BestBuy or Futureshop). This will give me about 6 hours of pump only protection during a power outage.

I've also bought the battery air pump Flame Angel referred you to. It will go into the UPS so when the UPS runs out the air will circulate water and keep O2 for another 30 hours or so.

I've added about $50 to the price of my setup, but, it is pretty minor compared to the rock, fish etc. and a good investment IMHO.

For a 225 gal tank, you would likely have to buy a handful the air pumps to keep things going for very long. The return pump for a system this large would also take a much larger UPS, but, it might still be a good idea and a good investment.

If you are really serious or you have major power outages all the time, you can get an automatic starting generator that hooks into your household power, starting at $4300 or so at Home Depot. ;-)

Just my two cents.

[One Salty Dog]

would those "power sources" they sell at Canadian tire that you plug into your car do the trick? I bet they would so you could have emergency power as long as you got gas.
Rob

[reefsurfer]

Thanks for responding.
I wonder what is a UPS? This sounds like a more resonable route. Along with those silent bublers! How many silents would you need per 100gal? Apoon, how many GPH can you get with your powerheads hooked on to this UPS? Thanks again.

[cres]

Sure. They have a fairly big one (on wheels) for $250. That would probably work with a bigger pump for a while.
But ... they lack automatic switching, so, you would either have to 1) manually plug it in when needed or 2) leave it charging and supplying at the same time (not part of the design though).

I did see you say that you manually turn over your tank during power outages every 1/2 hour? Boy, that sounds like fun. ;-)

[slykat]

Salty dog, I bought 1 of those power pack with inverter(all in 1) from canadian tire, they work great and come with an air compressor. the battery when fully charged can run the mag 90 for 6 hours, with heater(300W) 1.5h....

[One Salty Dog]

There you go then. Seems like the easy way to go except you have to be at home and know the powers out
Rob

[cres]

A UPS (Uninterupted Power Supply), is generally used to supply power during brief power outages.

It contains a battery (to hold charge) and an AC inverter (since batteries only hold DC charge).

UPSs come in different sizes and some of the really nice ones have USB or serial connectors that will allow a computer system to monitor power and charge and respond. For Aquarium use, the monitoring isn't important and will add unnecessary cost.

The "size" or charge holding capacity is typically measured in VA (volt amps). So, drawing less than an amp, say 100 watts, will last about 3 hours on a 300 VA UPS.

[One Salty Dog]

i think I would / will just go with a DEEP CYCLE marine battery and a converter. Those DEEP CYCLE batteries last a long time even when running a trolling motor on a boat and they draw a ton of juice. It could also be recharged in my car as needed if power is out for long periods like days
Rob

[cres]

Battery backup and alternate power is like insurance.
You have to conside the likelihood of failure (of different lengths of time) and the damage incurred during the outage.
If you have a 1/100000 chance of a minor outage causing no significant damage ... well, you don't spend much on the insurance.

If there is a probablility closer to 1 (i.e. very likely) and the damage potential is high (like losing a whole tank of coral and fish), you should spend more money on the backup power.

Then you should consider how long the system has to survive while you aren't there during a power outage. If you or someone is almost always near the tank and will take action right away, well, automatic systems aren't important. If like me, you may be away for most of a day at a time, it is good to have the automatic cut in of a UPS.

[One Salty Dog]

good point but I think a deep cycle battery and converter would actually cost more. I am also sure it could be set up to be automatic. I main concern is will the power last long enough to run a sump return pump for several hours?
Rob

[cres]

I would design the system to include a charger that has more than enough amps, a battery (marine or regular car's lead acid) and an inverter with at least 50% more capacity than your return pump needs. Leaving the charger charging and the system active, you won't need a cutover circuit.
I wouldn't put any heater or lights on the circuit (the tank won't cool off that quickly anyway).

Automotive and marine batteries typically have a rating in Amp.hours. A typical battery would be in the 50-100 Amp.hour range.

For example, the Reeflo Dart, 3600 gal/hour consumes 160 Watts (or about 1.5 Amps at 120 VAC).
This would represent about 14 Amps drain on the 12 Volt side (so you would need a fairly large charger). A 60 Amp.hour battery would last about 4 hours after the power goes out. A 100 Amp.hour battery would hold out for over 6. Depending on how efficient your AC inverter is you may lose of that time.

If you crack open a larger UPS, you will actually see automotive style batteries or lead-acid gell cell. You should be able to assemble a charger/battery/inverter for less than the price of a comparable UPS. But, you won't get a warantee. :-)

Have fun.

[tang_man_montreal]

I've mentioned this before, and will again.

Most UPS's are not made for running motors, pumps, etc, because they emit a squarewave and not a sinewave. In layman's terms, If you use a UPS to power a pump, it will eventually kill the pump and/or the UPS.

The same holds true for that canadiantire powerverter. It's a no-go.

The APC SmartUPS emits a simulated Sinwave that can be used for running pumps, motors, etc.

My backup system consists of a Tripplite 400w PowerInverter connected to 2 Deepcycle marine batteries. I'm in the process of DIY'ing an automatic switchover device with an integrated tricklecharger to automatically turn on battery power in the event of a powerfailure and to keep the batteries at full charge. The Tripplite unit emits a simulated sinwave that will not damage motors.

[One Salty Dog]

AHHH your using deep cycle marine batteries EH Vince. I do remember your post and is why I would not use the standard UPS backup. Bummer about the CTC thingee also being no good.
Rob

[tang_man_montreal]

Yup! :) I'm the one....
It is a bummer about the CRC thingee too, it would have been a nice, and cheap gadget. Oh well, I can always use one in the car for my laptop on long drives... :)

[aragorn69]

I suggest looking into the APC aquarium UPS, they are a little morte expensive, but $300 to protect $3000+ and not have to clean up a mess. And even if you only get one that will power the bare minimum for a few hours, it will give you time to get ready with the battery powered pumps and if need be, the buckets. Maybe even try looking on eBay for a used UPS.

[tang_man_montreal]

Aragorn69,
APC doesn't have an "aquarium UPS". Are you referring to the SmartUPS that I mentioned earlier?

[Flame*Angel]

Last fall I went through a pretty bad power outage with Hurricane Juan. I thought I was prepared but still lost most of my fish, check the journals on my website starting September 28, 2003 to see what happened. It's too painful to type out here. http://www.sjwilson.net/reef To this day I still can't sleep through a storm.

I had a 400w power inverter hooked up to my car which ran a heater and a few powerheads just fine as long as the car was running - and I had it set up away from the engine so it wouldn't overheat (don't underestimate this part, it's why I lost my fish).

The battery operated pumps were great but you need a fair number of them for a large tank.

Since the hurricane I:

- bought a generator

- have an emergency supply box in my main floor closet with batteries and flashlights

- have a tank emergency box in the same closet with air pumps all set up with tubing, powerheads and a spare heater

- keep my power inverter in a table cupboard by the front door all ready to go

- keep a set of 20' booster cables in the trunk of my car

- keep 40 gallons of gas out on the back step

- have automatic battery air pumps connected and ready to go

- have emergency plug in automatic lights in the hallways all over the house.

Seems like overkill to those why haven't been through this but trust me, once you've lost almost all your fish you'll understand. NEVER AGAIN

[apoon]

I bought this:
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=0&WLBS=fsweb22&sku_id=0665000FS10033670&catid=&newdeptid=2
You shoud note what tang_man said though.

reefsurfer: I use it for two 201 and one 301 power heads. As my tanks are small: two 15 gallons and one 35 gallons. So I am fine.

[percula99]

Vince, where do you come up with some of this stuff? Squarewave, Sinewave....:rolleyes: It's good to know because I would have never thought of that.

I was looking into a UPS from Belkin. It handles 670 watts for 100 minutes.

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Product_Id=123044

From what I have read, it seems some people think that if you only plug in a 40 watt power head, it would last exponentially longer than if you used the maximum allowed. I wanted to be sure, so I asked my brother-in-law, a senior electrician in Halifax. He said it would only last 100 minutes. No longer. Either I was skeptical about his expert advice, or wishful thinking, I contacted the manufacturer directly. Belkin said the same thing, no matter what load you put on a UPS, it will only last the rated duration, or 100 minutes in this case. I will definitely look into the APC UPS.

Right now I have a 600 watt inverter, and two battery operated air pumps (installed in tank), and two battery operated air pumps (that don't plug in). The provblem with these and the inverter is you have to be home to turn them on. I always seem to run into problems when I am on vacation.

[Flame*Angel]

Yup, the only thing that works if you're not home or asleep is the battery operated automatic air pumps. That or a high-end generator that's wired into your electrical system and comes on when the power cuts out. I actually looked into those but they're like $10G.

[tang_man_montreal]

Perc, Flame,

It's for this reason that I'm DIY'ing a automatic switch-over circuit that will automatically turn on my Power Inverter when the power goes out.

Off the top of my head, I can power my Mag18 Sump return pump off 2 Deep Cycle Marine batteries for ~18-24 hours. :)

[percula99]

Vince, how much are deep cycle marine batteries, and where can you get them?

Like usual, thanks for your expert advice.

[tang_man_montreal]

You can get them at Canadian Tire. :)
http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=253437430 3311787&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524443248508&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395348027&bmUID=1093968217667&assortment=primary

http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=253437430 3311787&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524443271697&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395348027&bmUID=1093968217705&assortment=primary

http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=253437430 3311787&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524443248305&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395348027&bmUID=1093968217742&assortment=primary

[aragorn69]

This site can help you choose a UPS.
http://www.koivet.com/coolstuff/apc/choosing.htm

[aragorn69]

Don't deep cycle battereis not like to be charged constantly? Couldn't you use a small battery charger to constantly charge some good quality car batteries, and have an inverter attached to them, them make some sort of magnetic switching block to turn on when the power goes out?

[aragorn69]

Just read something

Do NOT use wet lead-acid batteries around salt water. If salt water is mixed with the battery's electrolyte, deadly chlorine gas is produced. Only use sealed VRLA AGM or Gel Cell batteries around salt water.
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq1.htm

And if you read he entire article it goes into talking about proper battery charging, might be cheaper in the long run to get one of the before mentioned smart ups's. But it's always cooler to build it yourself, or at least IMO.

[hawk66]

Tangman, where did you get the Tripplite inverter an how much was it? Thanks

[tang_man_montreal]

Aragorn69,
I'll look into that article. Thanks. However if the battery is in a sealed compartment this will minimize the risks of the afformentioned chloring gas issue. The main issue is that saltwater should not come in contact with the electrolyte INSIDE the battery. Unless someone puts saltwater in there instead of distilled water, there's little chance of that happenning.

Hawk66,
I was lucky enough to come across a used one on ReefCentral several months ago. I got it for dirt cheap too...

[cres]

Actually another risk with a standard automotive type lead acid batter is that Hydrogen gas will be produced when the battery is either heavily used or heavily charged. Hydrogen gas is highly combustible (ignited by the smallest spark), you should have the battery separate from the living quarters anyway.
Gell cells are safer, but, tend to be larger for a given charge capacity. You don't really want any non-sealed electrics or electronics near salt water. Aside from the corosion it causes, salt water is highly conductive and will short out many devices.

[Flame*Angel]

How do you recharge those deep cycle marine batteries? Sounds like a great option for short power outages.

[cres]

You use a "deep cycle marine battery charger" -- no joke.

They have circuits designed to take "deep cycle" (i.e. nearly completely discharged) batteries from low to full charge.

A normal battery charger will do the trick, but, will shorten the life of a battery used in this way.

A standard car battery is designed to stay fully charged all the time. Fully discharging and recharging a car battery shortens it's life. Standard car battery chargers are for very occasional use and will shorten a battery's life if used often on a battery that is fully discharged often.

[Flame*Angel]

Ah, that would be this:
http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=253437430 2721229&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524443271698&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395348027&bmUID=1093990229501&assortment=primary

[reefsurfer]

Thanks for all the great info. Hey tang man it sounds like your onto something with your Triplite 400w power inverter and Deep cycle batts. Where would I get this triplite device and how much would I be looking into spending? The other thing is the switch your making for this set up, what does it consist of? Thanks for further details on this subject!

[reeferboy]

I picked up one of these:

Guardian Generators (http://www.guardiangenerators.com/support/guardian_71215kW.asp?NavID=1)

Of course with a 400 gal. reef and 180 gal fish only on the same system there was alot invested in it.

Ran me about $2000 the electrician on site during the construction wired it right in to the tank room dedicated circuits.

[tang_man_montreal]

reefsurfer,
I just did a quick search, and found the Tripplite PV500FC for $227 Cdn. (Mine is the older model, the PV400FC). I found it here:
http://www.directdial.com/ca/shopTripplite/item/prod.asp?item=PV500FC

Go to www.tripplite.com for more info on it, and to find out more places to purchase the unit.

I'm still ironing out the details on it, however it will be wired into my ON/OFF switch of my Tripplite Inverter. I got the idea for it from this thread on ReefCentral:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64918&highlight=backup

That thread is VERY detailed, and goes into detail, including a schematic of what's needed.

[reefsurfer]

Thanks very much for the tip tang man. Ill definatly look into it. Hey reeferboy that generator only cost 2 gs or the electrician to hook it up cost 2 grand?

[One Salty Dog]

I have seen these units at Home Depot and the 2Gs is the unit. Hook up was likely extra.
NICE SETUP REEFERBOY
Rob

[reeferboy]

The generator cost $1780 plus tax. The electrician is doing it with the rest of the house so the cost is essentially none existant.

[aragorn69]

Sweet.